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Originally posted by Kolvar:
With every new person coming in here, it becomes more difficult to find a consent, it seems.
Because I will not write one sex-rule, I am just hoping, this will come to an end, soon, because I am eager to rework the stuff and get on with collecting.

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I like the idea of using the sexual conditions for more than description (as probably everyone can guess, who has read this thread from the start).

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Well, I think we're getting closer and closer to a consensus. I think Riot Gear's rules, Tanelin's rules, and my rules are getting closer and closer to a happy synthesis. I think that in a couple of days, we should have a system that we can all agree upon.

[Note that I don't have complete class writeups to post for you, just a general description of the class abilities the controller and chaste virgin get]

Controller

• Mind Probe (Su): read the surface thoughts and memories of living creatures within 100 feet. Lasts as long as you concentrate, though solid objects can block it.
  
• Sense Probe (Su): read the senses and emotions of living creatures within 100 feet (you can use one of their senses or a single emotion at a time). Lasts as long as you concentrate and you can change senses/emotions freely each round, though solid objects can block it.
  
• Suggestion (Su): 3 times per day roughly as per the suggestion spell.
  
• Emotion (Su): 3 times per day, roughly as per the emotion spell (great for those instant lusts).
  
• Mind Leech (Su): Once per day "borrow" the ranks in a single skill from a creature you have under your mind probe power for 10 min/level.
  
• Sense Leech (Su): Once per day get a +5 bonus to Balance, Listen, and Spot while inflicting the same penalty on a creature under your sense probe power (borrowing their senses).
  
• Alter Form (Su): 2 times per day permanently change the features of someone under your mind or sense probe power. Changes are permanent but fall under those that alter self can do. Each individual adjustment (ie change hair color, change eye color, etc) costs one use of the power (great for adjusting "endowment" and appearance to your needs).
  
• Lesser control (Su): Similar to charm person (although it can cause sexual attraction) on one creature.
  
• Control (Su): Similar to dominate person on one creature.
  
• Greater Control (Su): Similar to thrall on someone you have under the control ability.
  

And yes, these abilities have Will saves (except Alter Form which is a Fort save) to resist them.

Chaste Virgin(this one is at home, going to try and do it from memory)

• Iron celibacy bonus feat
  
• Prudishness: bonus to Sense motive to detect seduction attempts.
  
• Purity of Mind: Can ignore skill check penalties from first two stages of arousal.
  
• Prestige Domains: Innocence and Purity (still need to do their domain powers/spells).
  
• Purity of Body: Bonus to saves against mind-affects and compulsions.
  
• Slow to Climax: Harder to raise a chaste virgin through levels of arousal - however it is we settle on doing this.
  
• Coitus Interruptus: Can make touch attack to kill sexual desire in others.
  
• Influential Celibacy: Can make touch attack to temporarily bestow effects of Iron Celibacy on others.
  
• Transcend Arousal: Become sexless, genderless, arousal-less outsider with minor damage reduction.
  

I've got the restrictions for the Seducer/Seductress finished and will try to get the abilities for that and the Beguiler done tonight. I'm hoping to be finished by Friday night so I can post them all.

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I KNOW what you're thinking...

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Originally posted by Riot Gear:
I believe my system, as stands, is superior. This is because of the following:
My system is not hard to keep track of - No more so than Perform.
My system isn't finished yet, so it's only going to get better. For example, Resist Pleasure will allow you to avoid orgasming even after hours of sex at high levels. Many of the things that are now maneuvers can be made available to all. For example, Selfish, Selfless, and Frustrating are all potentially built in to it.
I think we should go with my system for a base once we finish.

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Well, I think it's too soon to say any one system is superior to anyone else's. We have yet to see a more finalized version of Jashin and Tanelin's system.

Also, I think the final system is most likely going to be a fusion of all three systems. We're already seeing that -- you incorporated my Sexual Threshold and Orgasm DC rules into your system, and I've adapted your Sex Tricks into my system. Nobody's system is finished yet, so we all have a chance to make our systems "even better", because they'll all grow together. That's the only way we can reach consensus.

Also, I hate to sound obtuse, but I'm not really sure how your system works. Okay, there's a Sexual Prowess skill (which is pretty much taken verbatim from my earlier documents, based on the DC chart). And there's some sub-skills. But how does the system work? What does raising your partner's orgasm DC do in your system?

Another question on your system. So far, each sexual act is represented by a separate Sex Trick -- coitus, cunnilingus, fellatio, foreplay, etc. You're still limited to one Sex Trick per level... so, does that mean someone with only 1 rank in Sexual Prowess can only do one thing? And that someone with no Sexual Prowess ranks can't do anything? Or do these tricks provide bonuses to check rolls? Some clarification would be nice.

As for your questions:

"What does raising your partner's orgasm DC do in your system?"

The EXACT same thing that it does in your system, and using the same table you do.

"so, does that mean someone with only 1 rank in Sexual Prowess can only do one thing?"

It does mean they can only apply their ranks in Sexual Prowess to one thing. Nothing will stop them from making an untrained check. Characters with an extremely high charisma can do most of this naturally.

"Or do these tricks provide bonuses to check rolls?"

One part of my system is that you can 'double up' on a single sex trick. For example, if you had two ranks in Sexual Prowess, you could have Sexual Prowess (Fellatio, Receive Phallus) or Sexual Prowess (Receive Phallus x2). If you have more than one level in a Sex Trick, you gain a bonus to that Sex Trick equal to the number of levels you have in it divided by two, and rounded down.

As far as the How Sex Actually Works, it's the same as in your system. I just think my method is better for keeping track of how good you are at sex.

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[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Riot Gear ]

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Originally posted by Riot Gear:
I'm sorry - I didn't really come off the right way. I'm actually trying to make an amalgation of the best bits of what we've all got so far. You've probably noticed that some of it has literally been cut and pasted from Tanelins and your work.

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Very cool. Here's to amalgamation! *toasts*

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It does mean they can only apply their ranks in Sexual Prowess to one thing. Nothing will stop them from making an untrained check. Characters with an extremely high charisma can do most of this naturally.

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Okay, I see. Not sure if I'm completely sold on it, but it at least makes more sense. I still think I prefer Sexual Prowess representing general sexual skill, and Tricks representing specializations. What does everyone else think?

quote:

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One part of my system is that you can 'double up' on a single sex trick. For example, if you had two ranks in Sexual Prowess, you could have Sexual Prowess (Fellatio, Receive Phallus) or Sexual Prowess (Receive Phallus x2). If you have more than one level in a Sex Trick, you gain a bonus to that Sex Trick equal to the number of levels you have in it divided by two, and rounded down.

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Hrm. Makes sense, although a bit more minor math is required. I guess what really bothers me about this is that you're buying Tricks just to be functional at particular acts rather than developing a certain style. Also, without offering Tricks to allow different abilities to be used (Dexterous Lover, Powerful Lover, etc.), anyone with a low Charisma is screwed (or not screwed, as the case may be), as they'll be utterly unable to do anything at all well until they dump a load of Ranks so they can buy basic techniques. Of course, that may be your intention, but for some reason it doesn't quite work for me. I'm curious to see what everyone else's opinion is, though.

Ok, here are some random thoughts on all of the posts I have read, trying to keep everything in mind.

I too prefer to use Sexual Prowess as a general evaluation of your ability, and the sex tricks to reflect specialization. Therefore, a 1st level character with 4 ranks of Sex Prowess and +1 ability modifier would have a combined bonus of +5 for any skill check she makes. However, since she has fallatio (4) as her tricks, she makes any fellate check at +7.

Onto other topics---I think it was Zelda who asked what effect the different states of arousal have on the game—is it harder to cast spells if you are horny, etc. I swore to Jash that my rules for that were in the version of our netbook that I put up for you all to see, but I made a booboo. The states of arousal are mentioned, but not explored in depth. Here now is my concept of the states of arousal:

Condition Summary

This list of physical states of being is to supplement the list in the DMG that includes "exhausted," "Fatigued," and "incapacitated" and may often suggest changes to states that are already listed. When a spell or action or feat refers to a result that indicates a new state, it is referring to this section, so if a spell causes arousal, then refer to this list to see what arousal does to a PC.

Arousal: the character is physically ready for sex. If male, they are erect and ready to penetrate, if they are female, this means their nipples and clitorises are hardening and their pussies are lubricating. Lovers can use sexual prowess checks to arouse their partners with foreplay. All NC rules are in as much application for foreplay and arousal as they are for actual sex. If a character is Aroused, then any attempt to pleasure them is at +2, and the Aroused character suffers a -2 in any attempts to resist pleasure.

Horny: Character is emotionally ready for sex--they have an itch and want to scratch it. Horny characters are at -5 to resist any seduction attempts. Horny characters are normally (though not necessarily always) also Aroused. If the horniness is directed at a specific target, it is the same thing as Lust, and is only in effect if that target is in view. A character who is naturally horny remains so until they climax, are shocked, are injured, or have cold water thrown on them. Horny females get a +2 circumstantial bonus to their charisma when dealing with sexually compatible males.

Horny And Aroused: If a character is both Horny and Aroused, per the above terms, then they suffer an additional penalty--they are considered distracted and cannot “take 10” on any non-sexually based skill check while is such a condition.

Lust: the Character has a powerful attraction to another, and a strong, nearly overpowering, desire to **** them. These characters are at -10 to resist any seduction attempts made by the object of their lust and will in fact initiate seduction attempts of their own. Characters of evil and chaotic alignments may attempt to rape these objects of lust if their attentions are rebuffed.

Peaked: The character is right on the edge of orgasm. They are at a heightened state of arousal, and require only one more push to come. A Character cannot be forced to climax (other than through certain spells) without being brought to this point. A character who is Peaked must make a concentration check against a DC 15 before doing any non-sexually based skill checks, and all said skill checks suffer a -2. A Peaked character is -5 to resist pleasure attempts. Unless the Peaked character is brought to climax, the state will degrade within 1d4+3 rounds, although Pleasure checks (DC 15) can be made to sustain a lover’s Peak without climaxing them.

Over-stimulated: character has gone way past Peaked and is in sexual agony as they are a hair’s breadth away from release, but climax is teasingly withheld from them. A character can be made Over-stimulated in 3 ways--their lover can make a pleasure check specifically for that purpose at a DC of 30, or can make 5 consecutive successful sex skill checks to maintain their partner’s Peak. An Over-stimulated character cannot resist pleasure unless they first make a successful Will Save versus DC 25. While in this state, a character cannot perform any Intelligence based skills (except Sexual Prowess) or cast spells and is at -10 for all other skill checks, and suffers a -5 morale penalty for all save attempts (other then the one mentioned above). Finally, an Over-stimulated character will agree to do almost anything (DC 20+ charisma bonus of bargaining PC) to be allowed to achieve climax. Over-stimulated characters require constant stimulation to maintain this heightened state of arousal, or it will fade after 1d4+2 rounds. Also, over-stimulated characters must make will checks every round to avoid losing temporary wisdom points

Sexual Delirium: characters who have reached this stage are Helpless and Incapacitated (see DMG, page 84). The only action they are capable of is mindless ****ing and sucking. They are also suggestible as per the Hypnotize spell and get no bonuses and will saves until they get a full nights sleep.

I hope this helps out with some of the ideas. If a character is in the midst of one of these conditions, it *will* effect how they react to non-sexual stimulus. If the two lovers are dumb enough to tryst in a dungeon and a troop of orcs come upon them, they are going to be at a real disadvantage.

Other uses for these conditions are spell and herb effects. Ok, a spell makes the target horny---exactly how does that effect the game? Now we know.

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Tanilen

Tanilen: Your states/ conditions of arousal are a bit more precise than what we got so far in the other systems. I like them, but I think the rules-writers have to decide on their own, what they make out of it.

Isawa: the logo is realy nice, although: I think, it would be nice, if the penis was a bit less visible.
I will put it on the site (a bit smaller and as download), if it is OK.

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Originally posted by Isawa_Sideshow:
Okay, I've got an idea for the UCK logo/header. Just put it together from a couple of fonts that I had on my system. Let me know what you think.

Netbook Logo/Header

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I like it.

I don't think penis should be hidden, Kolvar. We have woman's breasts showed around everywhere so much it's not even sexual anymore, it's called commercial.

What's this 'holy ****' about penises anyway?
(Yeh, I know, some screwed up cultural thing. From same kind of reasons our hentai-manga/anime 'heroes' still mostly look like little girls. )

Wizards are intellectuals, and clerics use wisdom and concentrate on preyer. Lust clouds senses and weakens the will. Lust kind of makes people stupid (I don't mean attraction, or intrest), but not less charismatic, at least, not by default. Power of personality doesn't take a holiday with strong feelings. Angry people stay intimidating too, maybe even more so.

Those wizards/priests/any other spellcaster with skill in sex magic are different story entirely.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Zelda, do not forget, that the laws and oppinions in USA are abit different from the ones in Finnland (or Germany, or anywhere else).

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Yeh, USA politics are partially behind those japanese hentai-girl-babes too. It's just so sad.

Nothing particular against USA or hentai babes, just a mention.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
You could argue right from the other side, Zelda: because you are very involved and all your personal power is effected, sorcerers and bards got an even harder time to cast spells, while clerics receive their spells from someone else.
The main problem would be the concentration (If I think about concentrating on a particularly difficult poem and opening myself to an additional energy (apart, from what is surging through my body because of the sex), I would not want that to happen when I have just such a good time (different for those, who are only on the giving side and are not to much into it.)

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Thats true, maybe cleric spells are not that affected either (although some gods might not like certain feeling back-color of one's prayers ).

Wizards are book-wise, and their magic is very precise (why it would be otherwise based on intelligence), I think arousal state gives their magic (if untrained in sex-rituals or something) worse concentration penalities.

Put speaking of personal involtment. Saying it would hinder them more, is a bit like bards would get performance penalites, 'cause people are watching. Those caster-classes have very few spells they can ever learn, compared to tomes of wizards at least, and thus casting them is bound to become more natural. And bards can sing and dance, while casting spells.

Concentration penality through damage is very different issue, it's not only pain, it's the danger for your life. Natural survival inctinct starts overriding, and even if bravely casting spell is wise decicion, your inctict don't agree, if someboydy is hacking you arm off. Unless you are trained it very well to be a nice do (high concentration skill).

I am not saying they shouln't get penalities while untrained. I only say they should get less, than, like wizard.

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Originally posted by Tanilen:
I too prefer to use Sexual Prowess as a general evaluation of your ability, and the sex tricks to reflect specialization. Therefore, a 1st level character with 4 ranks of Sex Prowess and +1 ability modifier would have a combined bonus of +5 for any skill check she makes. However, since she has fallatio (4) as her tricks, she makes any fellate check at +7.

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I've got that represented right now by the Oral Sex Focus trick. I wouldn't be adverse to making it a trick that can be taken multiple times.

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Condition Summary

Arousal: the character is physically ready for sex. If male, they are erect and ready to penetrate, if they are female, this means their nipples and clitorises are hardening and their pussies are lubricating. Lovers can use sexual prowess checks to arouse their partners with foreplay. All NC rules are in as much application for foreplay and arousal as they are for actual sex. If a character is Aroused, then any attempt to pleasure them is at +2, and the Aroused character suffers a -2 in any attempts to resist pleasure.

Horny: Character is emotionally ready for sex--they have an itch and want to scratch it. Horny characters are at -5 to resist any seduction attempts. Horny characters are normally (though not necessarily always) also Aroused. If the horniness is directed at a specific target, it is the same thing as Lust, and is only in effect if that target is in view. A character who is naturally horny remains so until they climax, are shocked, are injured, or have cold water thrown on them. Horny females get a +2 circumstantial bonus to their charisma when dealing with sexually compatible males.

Horny And Aroused: If a character is both Horny and Aroused, per the above terms, then they suffer an additional penalty--they are considered distracted and cannot “take 10” on any non-sexually based skill check while is such a condition.

Lust: the Character has a powerful attraction to another, and a strong, nearly overpowering, desire to **** them. These characters are at -10 to resist any seduction attempts made by the object of their lust and will in fact initiate seduction attempts of their own. Characters of evil and chaotic alignments may attempt to rape these objects of lust if their attentions are rebuffed.

Peaked: The character is right on the edge of orgasm. They are at a heightened state of arousal, and require only one more push to come. A Character cannot be forced to climax (other than through certain spells) without being brought to this point. A character who is Peaked must make a concentration check against a DC 15 before doing any non-sexually based skill checks, and all said skill checks suffer a -2. A Peaked character is -5 to resist pleasure attempts. Unless the Peaked character is brought to climax, the state will degrade within 1d4+3 rounds, although Pleasure checks (DC 15) can be made to sustain a lover’s Peak without climaxing them.

Over-stimulated: character has gone way past Peaked and is in sexual agony as they are a hair’s breadth away from release, but climax is teasingly withheld from them. A character can be made Over-stimulated in 3 ways--their lover can make a pleasure check specifically for that purpose at a DC of 30, or can make 5 consecutive successful sex skill checks to maintain their partner’s Peak. An Over-stimulated character cannot resist pleasure unless they first make a successful Will Save versus DC 25. While in this state, a character cannot perform any Intelligence based skills (except Sexual Prowess) or cast spells and is at -10 for all other skill checks, and suffers a -5 morale penalty for all save attempts (other then the one mentioned above). Finally, an Over-stimulated character will agree to do almost anything (DC 20+ charisma bonus of bargaining PC) to be allowed to achieve climax. Over-stimulated characters require constant stimulation to maintain this heightened state of arousal, or it will fade after 1d4+2 rounds. Also, over-stimulated characters must make will checks every round to avoid losing temporary wisdom points

Sexual Delirium: characters who have reached this stage are Helpless and Incapacitated (see DMG, page 84). The only action they are capable of is mindless ****ing and sucking. They are also suggestible as per the Hypnotize spell and get no bonuses and will saves until they get a full nights sleep.

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I like these. I'll have to figure out a way to work these into my system -- perhaps based on Threshold, perhaps based on the orgasm DC. These do make a lot of sense, though I may have to play with the modifiers to Sexual Prowess and orgasm saves. For example, if a Peaked character has a -5 to their orgasm saves, they'll orgasm almost every time, no matter how bad their partner is.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
You could do something along the line, that each successfull check raises the state by one (or more, if you are realy good).

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How many states are there, then? Would it go Aroused -> Peaked -> Orgasm? That would require quite a bit of reworking on my part, but I'll play around with it and see what I can do.

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Originally posted by Vaxalon:
You may find THIS ARTICLE useful. It's about the sexual response cycle.

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Ah, yes. The excitement/plateau/orgasm cycle. I had that in an earlier version of my document, and basically worked like this:

Excitement -- before hitting Sexual Threshold
Plateau/Peaked -- after hitting Sexual Threshold
Orgasm -- failing the Orgasm save

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Ialdabode: I put up the psionic file as an additional file on the site, therefore: I want this psionic PC (give it to me, give it to me)

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You'll get it. I've got to do the Ravager and Pimp tonight, then I'll put it all in a zipped .RTF file so you can get at it.

Off the top of my head, some general points about the seductress/seducer and beguiler (both of which I wrote last night):

Secductress only gets a handful of abilities, but they scale. They get increasing bonuses on their Bluff, Innuendo, and Use Rope skills when used in a sexual way, they have increasing sneak attack bonuses (for those times your goal is to kill), they can deal subdual damage during sex...

The beguiler is all about potions. They can brew more times a day than normal, they can brew for spells they don't have access to, and they can create four special philters - friendship, lust, obsession, and true love. Diverging slightly from that, at first level they can start to speak very convincingly on things - how else do you explain the irrational actions people make in response to those mystical witch doctors with the love potions or critters named Gizmo?

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I KNOW what you're thinking...

Sexual Prowess and Sex Tricks:
I agree with the idea that Sexual Prowess should cover all your basic sexual techniques and skill. You should be able to do whatever you want in whatever position with this basic skill as your roll.

Sex Tricks should be enhancments. They can provide bonuses, like the Oral Sex Specialization giving a bonus to fellatio. They can also be used to overcome penalties, such as one you might get from multiple partners, or even the penalties to cast spells or use other skills while aroused.

Also, I would just like to say my earlier confusing system was just an idea. You know, the one with the tricks and ranks paid for seperately? I wasn't sure it was a good idea, and I'm kind of glad none of you thought so either!

Penalties: (just and idea to illustrate a point)
My only concern here is that is it fair to give one spell caster better or worse penalties than any other? I don't think so myself, unless the stat used for the checks is just one naturally favoured by a class or two.

CHA, for example, if that was used as the stat check, would favour Bards and Sorcerers, so they would typically have an easier time than a Wizard. But there's nothing stopping the Wizard from having a high CHA as well as a high INT if the player rolls well. I think that's a fair way.

Site Hosting:
If we're worried about content issues, maybe we could ask Tan about using the Naked Blades server? I'm sure he'd be cool with allowing the guide to go up there, and given the nature of NB, content will most certainly not be an issue!

How about it, Tan?

(Oh yeah, loved the logo. )

Advantages & Disadvantages:
I wanted to bring this up because I love some of the ideas of how this can be used. I think we could use this in conjuction with Sex Tricks, if we tried to keep tricks as Things You've Learned and advantages as Things You've Got a Natural Talent For. Of course, some overlap would be allowed, and even come about naturally, but it could make things even more interesting.

Overall, I think maybe a real Advantages & Disadvantages supplement would be a seperate entity. I might get to some serious cracking on it myself, but I do think it needs to be done in conjunction with the NoUCK in order to insure compatibility.

(I'm talking about including Advantages & Disadvantages that aren't sexual in nature as well)

It's one of the great things Tan has worked on, and I'm going to try and get into it better. The trick is to make sure they're not as strong as feats, but still worth spending a couple skill points on...

What do you all think of trying to differentiate between Sex Tricks and sexual Advantages this way?

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