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Originally posted by Jashin:

Yes, I am the WraithSpider author. I am going to be getting back to writing very soon, by early next week. Other projects are completed, and it's time to get writing again!

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Yay!! More Alystin stories!! More naughty drow adventures!!

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Issue - Difficult System Mechanics: I think the mechanics of the system need to be reworked though. The points idea is sound, but annoying and needlessly cumbersome. I'm not just making this up, BTW, Tan actually tried a points system at one point. It was found to be more difficult to use than it was worth.

We should try to avoid creating a system where rules will substitute for good description. As with any RPG mechanic, it should be a matter of describing actions, and then making a simple roll or two to resolve the effect of said action. Try it out, and I think you'll find the addition of an extra "stat", the SRP, to be uneccessary.

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Well, SRP has been totally done away with, and we're currently working on a system with a saving throw of increasing DC to resist orgasm. There is a new stat that covers how many minutes of sex you can have before you have to start worrying about orgasm, but it's much easier to track.

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Solution - Simplified System: What Tan came up with was the idea of using differing states of arousal. Not at all dissimilar from the states as you've all come up with, the idea is for each being to move from one state of arousal to the next. The basic idea would be to use DCs, each partner involved in the sex to roll thier Sexual Prowess (or whatever we call it) against a DC to increase their partners arousal.

Moving from one state to the next this way has the advantage of much simplified record keeping.

Integrating the Systems: The goal here is to try and take the advantages of both systems and squish 'em together to make something really solid. I think using the States of Arousal concept is really good. The tricks are too amazing, and I'm sure we can keep everything.

If we use the idea of rolling against a target DC to change the "Arousal State" of your partner, then implementing the tricks is very simple. When you wish to use a trick, and this also neatly integrates the DC of the tricks as Riot Gear has them, you roll to succeed at the trick. If you succeed, then the DC to modify your partners state is effected.

In order to encourage the use of this system as I've outlined it, the mechanics should probably make the DC relatively high for "vanilla" sex. If you don't try something...interesting, then your roll is harder than it would be if you are clever and skilled.

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A few points:
- I'm not a big fan of having DCs for particular sexual maneuvers. I prefer having Sexual Prowess reflect overall skill with a variety of maneuvers and allowing Sex Tricks to reflect specializations in technique.
- "Vanilla" sex having a higher DC: while understand the concept, there's a bit of a problem in execution. Someone with a low Sexual Prowess skill (1 or 2 points) isn't likely to be skilled enough to do much more than plain sex, but if the DC for plain sex is very high, the chance that they'll ever get their partner off is amazingly small. The idea that more interesting and complicated maneuvers are somehow easier to pull off seems counter-intuitive.
- That said, I would still like to see a set of rules that used states of arousal clearly, perhaps integrated with what's been presented by Riot Gear and myself -- new ideas are always welcome. Take a look at our newest drafts, get some ideas, and let us know what you come up with!

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A thought on this: we could maybe make a slightly modified rule on how the tricks are implemented. Right now you get a new trick for every point you have in the skill, correct? What about seperating them, so that you can buy either a trick or a rank for a skill point, with the max number of tricks equal to your ranks in the Sexual Prowess?

Example: at first level, Candra the Rogue spends a whopping eight points on Sexual Prowess (this considers it's a class skill). This buys her a full max starting of Sexual Prowess +4, plus four sex tricks of her choice.

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Well, the problem with this is skill limits. Candra CAN'T buy 8 ranks of Sexual Prowess at first level, even as a class skill, since the limit for class skills is always 3 + your level. Can't change that without changing the core system. Also, that would make Sex Tricks much more rare, as all of them have prerequisites of X ranks in Sexual Prowess AND previous Sex Tricks. If I have to buy both separately, I'm more likely to go for skill ranks, since those ALWAYS increase my ability.

Speaking of changing core rules, are we planning on making the entire document OGL-compliant? If so, we may have to drop any references to psionics, as they're not in the SRD. (Sorry, Ialdabode. )

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Isawa: Could your wife do something like a header, something we could use for the guide and the page (or something like a logo for the guide)?

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I'll see what we can do. If nothing else, I can put together a simple header for us to use.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Zelda: take your own considerations and start from there: put modifications on sport/ listen etc. checks, saves. Just a list. As you said, there will probably some modificating to do, to incorporate the final rules.

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Ok, I see what I can do. I'd need some more ideas for those mishap-situations, so I'd have a cleared idea what I want to put in rules. I am a bit uncertain yet.

I think I go for bards/sorcerers casting a bit spells better in the middle of having sex (untrained ). And clerics' spontanous healing is, of course, spontanous.
"OH, My GODhhh!!"

(Okey, I should get more sleep.)

BTW, Would you like guide to Carnal Knowledge having it's own net domain address?
I didn't come up with many options, and
of more simple ideas, these domains are still free:
www.carnalknowledge.st www.carnalknowledge.ms www.carnalknowledge.nu www.carnalknowledge.to www.carnalknowledge.ac www.carnalknowledge.sh www.carnalknowledge.de
www.carnalknowledge-rpg.net www.carnalknowledge-rpg.com

If you'd like this sort of idea (names are just suggestions).

I am able to arrange this, if you want.

Quick answers, please.

(Might be, I am able to only get -net and -com addresses)

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Originally posted by Isawa_Sideshow:

Speaking of changing core rules, are we planning on making the entire document OGL-compliant? If so, we may have to drop any references to psionics, as they're not in the SRD. (Sorry, Ialdabode. )

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Isawa_Sideshow ]

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I don't recall that was the original idea.

And saying that,
Would anything stop us from making both versions?

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Would be nice.
If you have a free server with php on, too, that would be fine indeed. I am not willing to pay anything for this at the moment.

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Yes. Server would be located in Fínland, however, but that shouldn't be a problem. Quite fast global access.

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Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:

I don't recall that was the original idea.

And saying that,
Would anything stop us from making both versions?

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Well, yes. If we don't release it as OGL-compliant, then I believe WotC can legally request a cease-and-desist, because we'd be using the d20 rules system without a proper license. This also prevents us from using anything that WotC has produced that hasn't been released as part of the SRD (for example, psionics), as we'd be using non-OGL content without permission.

Anything that's been released as OGL content, however, is fair game.

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What means changing core rules, anyway? A lot of OGL-products have made their own rules-sets for some things. Does it mean those common issues: how skills work, how combat works, how feats work, levels etc.

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Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:

Yes. Server would be located in Fínland, however, but that shouldn't be a problem. Quite fast global access.

So, what should domain name be? If name is free, I start to arrenge that ASEP.

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Originally posted by Isawa_Sideshow:

My vote would be for www.carnalknowledge-rpg.com, just to differentiate us from possible porn sites.

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Great. Other suggestions? (I agree on what you said about porn-sites9.

Name doesn't have to be carnalknowledge-something. If you have some better idea, please share.

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Originally posted by Zelda Themelin:

Great. Other suggestions? (I agree on what you said about porn-sites9.

Name doesn't have to be carnalknowledge-something. If you have some better idea, please share.

I know tomorrow (my daytime) for certain, how it's gonna work.

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Originally posted by Isawa_Sideshow:

www.netbook-of-sex.com www.carnal-netbook.com www.netbook-of-uck.com

Just some shorter, easier to remember ideas. Feel free to use or discard as needed.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Isawa: I never realy understood, what was allowed and what was not allowed under OGL.
Lots of people are doing new psionic feats and prestige classes and some do even new psionic powers, but the psionics handbook is not open gaming, are they allowed to, or not? Surely, everyone may do feats and spells, but when do wie infringe the rights of WotC?
As I see it, the following points should be without problems for us to do:
- sex rules
- campaign and race ideas
- pregnancy and birth rules
- spells
- sex skills
- sex feats (+ metamagic etc.)
- Monster, Templates

what about psionic feats and psionic powers?

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To distribute anything that would work with WotC's psionics system, we'd have to get permission from WotC to use it.

Mechanics-wise, we can do the following:
- Sex rules (as these are new and additional rules)
- Pregnancy/birth rules (again, new and additional)
- New skills (as long as we don't totally redo how skills work)
- New general, sexual, and metamagic feats
- New races, monsters and templates
- New spells (as long as we don't use any WotC intellectual property -- no Mordenkainen or Bigby spells, for example)
- New prestige classes

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
We are not commercial, therefore I would prefere .net.

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Agreed. www.netbook-of-uck.net sounds good to me.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
Whom to ask, if we still want to do the psionic stuff?

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We'd have to contact WotC's licensing department, and there'd probably be a decent-sized fee of some sort -- as it's not free content, it wouldn't be a free license.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
OK, I got to change a bit of the spells (removing names and rewrite the tiny brothel (probably naming it Our Tiny Brothel).
Whom to ask, if we still want to do the psionic stuff?

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If psionic stuff gets sort stick (like is probable), be might convert them into spells, and incorpare there (as I mailed to you, Kolvar). As long, as AntiDjinn and other's agree.

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Originally posted by Kolvar:
There are several psionic systems out there, that are a bit alike but probably different enough. If we did the feats for them, what would happen?

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Well, we could do psionic feats, but we couldn't make any references to anything like WotC's system -- no power points, no 6 schools of psionic powers, no dorjes, no psion crystals, etc. We'd have to base it around a completely different set of psionics rules, and I think that would just lead to confusion all around. It's probably in our best interest to just skip psionics for the time being, or at least leave them out of the main document.

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Originally posted by Isawa_Sideshow:

Well, SRP has been totally done away with, and we're currently working on a system with a saving throw of increasing DC to resist orgasm. There is a new stat that covers how many minutes of sex you can have before you have to start worrying about orgasm, but it's much easier to track.

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Okay, that's good news. But I still fail to see the need for an additional stat. If you're talking about time, couldn't that be reflected by the changing States of Arousal anyway?

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A few points:
- I'm not a big fan of having DCs for particular sexual maneuvers. I prefer having Sexual Prowess reflect overall skill with a variety of maneuvers and allowing Sex Tricks to reflect specializations in technique.

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Okay, that's just a bit of confusion. I agree.

My idea wasn't DCs for maneuvers, but DCs for the tricks themselves. These could be used almost exactly as Riot Gear has them already.

For example, our Centaur catches the eye of an Elf woman. Regardless of whether she's on her back or her hands and knees (ie "Maneuver" = missionary or doggy), their relative chance to bring each other to orgasm is the same, but high because they are of different species. However, if either has the Adaptive Lover trick, and succeed in a check against DC 20 (just an arbitrary pick of a DC), they will lower the roll to bring their partner off.

Is that a little clearer?

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- "Vanilla" sex having a higher DC: while understand the concept, there's a bit of a problem in execution. Someone with a low Sexual Prowess skill (1 or 2 points) isn't likely to be skilled enough to do much more than plain sex, but if the DC for plain sex is very high, the chance that they'll ever get their partner off is amazingly small. The idea that more interesting and complicated maneuvers are somehow easier to pull off seems counter-intuitive.

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No, the maneuvers aren't easier to pull off. The example above should help to clarify that as well.

I'm thinking of Sex Tricks as kind of like mini-feats. As such, except for that Position Specialization one, "maneuvers" aren't "tricks". Successful use of a trick, a "trick" being a "technique" of greater potency than any normal sexual "maneuver", lowers the DC to bring the partner nearer to orgasm.

Now what you say about the DCs for vanilla sex is quite valid. But I never said very high, I was thinking just a few points higher. Maybe (and this is mostly off the cuff, with no real attempt to try it out) with two willing participants, the DC is normally 17, say. So, with vanilla sex you've got a 25% chance to succeed with a +1. If you know a couple tricks useful with this partner, however, and succeed at your trick check, you can lower that DC to 15 or maybe even 14 for the skill check!

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- That said, I would still like to see a set of rules that used states of arousal clearly, perhaps integrated with what's been presented by Riot Gear and myself -- new ideas are always welcome. Take a look at our newest drafts, get some ideas, and let us know what you come up with!

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I will!

I'm going to talk to Tan and maybe we can work out enough of my rough ideas to give you all a proper outline and some tested examples to go with.

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Well, the problem with this is skill limits. Candra CAN'T buy 8 ranks of Sexual Prowess at first level, even as a class skill, since the limit for class skills is always 3 + your level. Can't change that without changing the core system. Also, that would make Sex Tricks much more rare, as all of them have prerequisites of X ranks in Sexual Prowess AND previous Sex Tricks. If I have to buy both separately, I'm more likely to go for skill ranks, since those ALWAYS increase my ability.

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Okay, again, confusion. I really must take the time to fully explain these things, shouldn't I?

Candra only buys FOUR ranks of the skill. That limitation of the core mechanic limits RANKS you can buy, not how many SKILL POINTS you can spend on something. I picked eight deliberately, thinking it would make my idea clear.

Now what you are saying about buying only ranks to increase your ability is very valid. That's exactly why I said if we explored this possibility we'd have to make the system mechanic reward the use of tricks over just vanilla rolling. I'm not sure how to do that exactly...I'll get back to you, though.

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Speaking of changing core rules, are we planning on making the entire document OGL-compliant? If so, we may have to drop any references to psionics, as they're not in the SRD. (Sorry, Ialdabode. )

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Isawa_Sideshow ]

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I have a question about that...can they give a cease and dessist order to us even if we don't plan on making any money off this? I didn't think they could actually do anything...

I like Isawa's idea of doing them seperately as well. I don't much care for psionics as a rule, personally (even though the new rules really are excellent), but even more importantly, there could easily be enough material to make a seperate supplement.

Oh, and on the art question, I think maybe we should reflect the rules. I don't just mean pregnant women next to the rules on pregnancy, or happy gay couples next to the essay on homosexuality in RPGs, but also in how hard the art is.

If we do the nastier side of sex in a supplement, leaning on how to do a hentai game, it should probably have properly hentai art. Just a thought.

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jashin ]

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I will put psionics in an extra file, delete any names, that are WotCs and add teh OGL-license. The psionics file will be put on the site too.

I like the idea of using the sexual conditions for more than description (as probably everyone can guess, who has read this thread from the start).

I think we should start to get art at all and worry afterwards, what we got. Maybe Gwynn from the HTML-Version would share some of her comic-like art (have to ask). But I think, we will go for a lot of different styles in the guide.

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Originally posted by Jashin:
I have a question about that...can they give a cease and dessist order to us even if we don't plan on making any money off this? I didn't think they could actually do anything...

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This is a very common misconception. "I'm not making any money from it, so they can't do anything to me." It's not true. If you violate a copyright, free or not, you're liable for damages.

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Originally posted by Jashin:

Okay, that's good news. But I still fail to see the need for an additional stat. If you're talking about time, couldn't that be reflected by the changing States of Arousal anyway?

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Well, how would you represent how long someone could last with the States of Arousal? How would you differentiate between those who can go all night and those who are minutemen?

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Okay, that's just a bit of confusion. I agree.

My idea wasn't DCs for maneuvers, but DCs for the tricks themselves. These could be used almost exactly as Riot Gear has them already.

For example, our Centaur catches the eye of an Elf woman. Regardless of whether she's on her back or her hands and knees (ie "Maneuver" = missionary or doggy), their relative chance to bring each other to orgasm is the same, but high because they are of different species. However, if either has the Adaptive Lover trick, and succeed in a check against DC 20 (just an arbitrary pick of a DC), they will lower the roll to bring their partner off.

Is that a little clearer?

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A bit clearer. However, then you start getting away from the feat-like nature of Sexual Tricks, at least in my opinion. At that point, they might as well be separate skills, and that would just get even more confusing.

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No, the maneuvers aren't easier to pull off. The example above should help to clarify that as well.

I'm thinking of Sex Tricks as kind of like mini-feats. As such, except for that Position Specialization one, "maneuvers" aren't "tricks". Successful use of a trick, a "trick" being a "technique" of greater potency than any normal sexual "maneuver", lowers the DC to bring the partner nearer to orgasm.

Now what you say about the DCs for vanilla sex is quite valid. But I never said very high, I was thinking just a few points higher. Maybe (and this is mostly off the cuff, with no real attempt to try it out) with two willing participants, the DC is normally 17, say. So, with vanilla sex you've got a 25% chance to succeed with a +1. If you know a couple tricks useful with this partner, however, and succeed at your trick check, you can lower that DC to 15 or maybe even 14 for the skill check!

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Well, the Sex Tricks already give bonuses to Sexual Prowess checks under the right circumstances, and the higher the Prowess check result, the easier it becomes for your partner to have an orgasm (as their orgasm DC gets higher and higher).

As far as "vanilla" sex goes, my take on it is that vanilla sex is generally represented by untrained skill checks. You don't need the Sexual Prowess skill to have sex, just as you don't need a Ride skill to ride a horse. (Any similarities are otherwise coincidental. ) However, to do anything interesting in bed, you need the Sexual Prowess skill, as it represents skill above and beyond the "average" skill level. Again, the higher the skill checks, the better in bed you are. Someone who's unskilled isn't likely to roll high at all, and won't be that good at getting their partners off.

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I'm going to talk to Tan and maybe we can work out enough of my rough ideas to give you all a proper outline and some tested examples to go with.

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I look forward to seeing them!! I think we can reach a decent compromise all around.

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Okay, again, confusion. I really must take the time to fully explain these things, shouldn't I?

Candra only buys FOUR ranks of the skill. That limitation of the core mechanic limits RANKS you can buy, not how many SKILL POINTS you can spend on something. I picked eight deliberately, thinking it would make my idea clear.

Now what you are saying about buying only ranks to increase your ability is very valid. That's exactly why I said if we explored this possibility we'd have to make the system mechanic reward the use of tricks over just vanilla rolling. I'm not sure how to do that exactly...I'll get back to you, though.

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Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I'm still wary of using valuable skill points to buy Tricks and not get Ranks, though, since it puts anyone who doesn't have Sexual Prowess as a class skill at an EXTREME disadvantage, especially classes that only get 2 skill points a level.

Also, with Sex Tricks being free at one per rank of skill, it allows those ranks in Sexual Prowess to actually translate into a personal sexual style beyond plain Jane vanilla sex. Considering that most characters probably won't have more than a few ranks anyway, this allows them to still be capable and creative lovers, even though they're not sexual athletes.

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I have a question about that...can they give a cease and dessist order to us even if we don't plan on making any money off this? I didn't think they could actually do anything...

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I know Dr. Midnight on these boards was attempting to distribute free Spell Cards in PDF format -- basically, just a file that could be printed on index cards of every spell in the PHB for easy sorting and use. However, because parts of the content were not OGL-compliant (mostly names and such), WotC sent him a letter asking that he cease distributing it, which he did. Basically, if they don't protect their IP, they can lose it.

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Originally posted by Jashin:

If we do the nastier side of sex in a supplement, leaning on how to do a hentai game, it should probably have properly hentai art. Just a thought.

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jashin ]

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